Why Mark Carman Loves MJ and the Bulls
Wild tales and heartbreaking stakes of Carm's Bulls and Jordan fandom.
The first Bulls game Mark Carman ever attended, he learned a lesson from his mother.
“My brother was like, ‘Game’s over,’ and I’m like, ‘No, no, they still have a chance,’” Carman, known as “Carm,” recalls about a close Bulls loss at Chicago Stadium in the early 1980s, when Michael Jordan was still in college. “My mom was saying, ‘Let’s stay to the end.’”
Carm is the ultimate “Stay to the end” fan. That’s triply true with anything MJ-related. He attended Jordan’s first home playoff game, a two-point win over Milwaukee. In Jordan’s second season, the Carman family got $18 season tickets from friends who couldn’t use them for much of the year. In 1986-87, Jordan’s third season and first scoring title, Carm’s dad split the Bulls’ promotional “Sweet 16” ticket package with a friend: 16 games for the year, the Carmans getting nine of them.
In Jordan’s fourth year and first MVP season, the club gave Carm’s family an ultimatum: Keep your Sweet 16 seats as season tickets or you’re out. “So the fourth year we added a third partner and we ended up having season tickets all the way until … we gave them up in ’99 or 2000,” Carm says. “That’s our history of tickets.”
He found other ways to get close to his hero. He met Jordan in 1988 for the Bulls “Picture Day” event where fans could take photos with players before a game. He met him in 1991 when he and friends were among about 40 fans who waited at Jordan’s Highland Park house for him to return from Los Angeles after the first championship. He met him again at the start of the ‘96-’97 season, now with a press pass, horrifying himself with one question that MJ found a tad too friendly.
From his work at Yahoo to WGN and now his perfect spot at CHGO, Mark Carman takes no prisoners in Jordan debates. Covering the NFL Combine this year, he asked prospects for their “Jordan or LeBron?” breakdowns. These are young men who were toddlers for MJ’s Wizards days. Carm gave no quarter. I’ve had the pleasure — sincerely! — of sparring with him on dynasty topics.
Will it surprise you to know that our debates via text are the same as on-air? He’s that kind of dude. Genuine. Passionate. Urgent in his views. Anyone who talks to Carm knows he wears his MJ heart on his sleeve.
What I didn’t know until our interview was why MJ lives in his heart.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
MARK CARMAN: I got arrested in the 1993 NBA Finals, Game 4. Jordan had 55. They went up 3-1. Season ticket holders would get home games A thru P, which was 15 games, the maximum amount in the playoffs. But the Bulls would sweep teams out of the first or second round so Game P would never be used. Or Game O would never be used.
This was before the way they scanned tickets now. So I brought Game P tickets to Game 4 of the NBA Finals1, and I got nervous when I was in line that I was gonna get caught. So I got out of line and some dude walked up to me on the street and asked what I was doing. I thought he was a scalper so I proceeded to tell him what I was doing.
“I have these Game P tickets and I’m trying to go in on them. But what do you have?”2
He asks me again, “What are you doing?” I tell him again what I’m doing, so he handcuffed me to my girlfriend and walked us to the paddy wagon and took us to the jail, I think on Harrison, and I never saw one minute of the Jordan 55-point extravaganza against the Suns.
I was at a lot of historic games. I was there for Game 6 Portland, Game 1 Portland, Game 6 Utah in ’97. The greatest environment that I’ve ever seen in any game might have been Game 1 Bulls-Lakers. They had swept Detroit and it was such a momentous thing but the crowd didn’t get to salute them because they did it on the road. Everyone was in there 20 minutes, 25 minutes before the game — the place was packed, and it usually wasn’t that packed at that point — waiting for them to come out.
They played the “Hey!” song by Gary Glitter as they came out. It was just awesome. Before that they started playing, “Do You Believe in Magic?” and it started out friendly until people realized what they were playing and they started booing3. Then it went right into the “Hey!” song and it was one of the coolest atmospheres I’ve ever seen at any sporting event by far.
JACK: Steve Schanwald and I were talking about all the things he did to market Bulls games, because his #1 fear was how to sell tickets when the Bulls were bad. How noticeable was the change in terms of game-day entertainment under Schanwald? He started in January of ’87 and the sellout streak started in November of ’87.
Do you remember specific things that changed once Schanwald got there?
Looking back on it, it feels more gradual than some big pop. They had different halftime acts that I hadn’t seen before. They had this one dude, it was him and four dummies, and there were strings and a puppet thing. The guy was an incredible dancer. The Bulls Brothers was a big deal. The Luvabulls (pause) — I feel like they were always there but maybe they were more prominent later.
The big board — I have fond memories of “E.T.” for Elton Turner. You’d have the finger that was lit up and the basketball would touch it and it would go in. They had the Jackson 5 where they were all animated characters and Phil was doing the moonwalk. These things, I still can remember them…
It’s funny: your first game was a Hawks game. My first game was a Hawks game. I didn’t go to many Bulls games in the dynasty but one thing I remember from that board is that when B.J. scored, there was an illustration of an arm flexing and it said “Arm - Strong” on the muscle. When Horace scored, it said, “General Grant?” and then real big it said, “Horace Grant!” And there was some sort of image of like a Civil War general. And then it transformed into the goggles or something like that.
Yeah, all those things. Quintin Dailey would run out there like a movie director and it would say “on Q.” All that was there beforehand. I remember the last games where it wasn’t sold out, the three sections of the 2nd balcony. I think they were playing the Suns. It was annoying that it wasn’t fully sold out.
We used to go take the school bus down there and sit in the 2nd balcony from hebrew school or whatever. My brother once won two airplane tickets to go to New York. You could shoot a free throw for New York, a three-pointer for Hawaii or halfcourt for anywhere in the continental U.S. He shot the free throw. I was in the upper deck with the hebrew school and I didn’t notice him out there. (Laughs.)
The dot race was a huge thing, which is now the Dunkin Donut race. It was literally three dots and they’d go nuts for it, absolutely nuts. People would throw their tickets down from the 2nd balcony. They’d all come cascading down. The Stadium — I just have really fond memories. It’s one of my favorite places of all-time.
Tell me the story of these photos. What event is that?
They would have Picture Day every year, (either) out on the court or on the concourse on the first level. They would bring different players out. It was normally four at a time: Banks and Paxson and Waiters and Sellers, and then they’d bring out the next four. The year I got the Jordan picture, they were doing it out on the floor. There was one gate that led you onto the floor. You had to wait on the concourse and you’d be on line with like 15 people and you’d walk out and take pictures with each (player).
I go through the line and take the four pictures, but they don’t pay much attention as you’re walking back out. So I’m walking out and hear this huge excitement and gasp and I look and here’s Jordan coming out. I’ve already gone through the line and I’m like, (panic voice) “What am I going to do? How am I going to get back in there?”
Irwin Mandel was the Bulls’ cap guy. His son Mike Mandel was a Bulls ballboy, and Mike Mandel was a year behind me at Highland Park High School, so we knew each other enough. I walked over to him and said, “Will you walk me to the back of the line?” He walks me back, and I’ve literally already taken a picture with Brad Sellers who was there and I didn’t know how many polaroids I had left. So I’m telling Bulls players I was not taking a picture with them. “Sorry, I’m waiting for Mike.” (Laughs.)
I got the picture with Jordan. And if you look at it — and you can’t really tell on that sad polaroid — but I have one finger on him because I’m so afraid to touch him because he’s Jesus4.
Alright, let’s see who we have here. Let’s start with Pax. How was he?
I remember him being a friendly Pax, a professional Pax. My stories from there that I can remember: Gene Banks was the nicest guy ever and he picked me up. That was super cool. I was searching for something to say to Granville Waiters and I think I said something along the lines of, “Granville, you’re pretty tall,” and he said, “You’re pretty short.” That was my conversation with Granville Waiters, God bless him. I remember Sellers being — I took one picture with him but I didn’t take the second, and he was like, “This is normal, people passing me for a pic with Michael.”
And Jordan, I don’t think there was much conversation with him. I have memories of different things at the Multiplex where I would try to talk to him. But those were media questions. I don’t think I said a word to him that day. I’m in my red Kangol cap because that’s what Mike wore. (Laughs.)
What’s the coat here?
That was a fancy coat at the time. I don’t remember the brand. I’ve got my Bulls scarf underneath there. (Laughs.)
You were at the Shrug game. Where were you seated in relation to MJ’s 6th three?
I was behind him and opposite corner: section C, aisle 3, row H, seats 18 and 19. Mezzanine 8th row opposite the visitors’ bench. That was the most pandemonium I’d ever experienced in the first half of a game. He hit them all in the first half. I think he had 35 at the half —
That’s correct.
…and I think he finished with 39.
That’s correct.
The bigger one that year was Game 6. I was at Iowa at the time and I was all into the all-Iowa backcourt, B.J. and Bobby Hansen, starting the 4th quarter. But also as a strict Jordan sycophant I was getting antsy. “When are you going to put him back in?”
But the 4th quarter was nuts. The King bank shot. It was all insane. And my brother wanted to leave. Because you didn’t know that they were going to come back out (after winning the championship). I was standing on our mezzanine movie-style chairs. My brother was the worst with this stuff, a real “beat the traffic” guy. But me, “I’m not leaving.”
When they came out for the celebration, for me, there was never any other better moment in all six titles than that. It felt like the coronation of everything: losing to Detroit, getting past Detroit, “Jordan will never win because he’s just a scorer,” “Magic and Bird are better,” all that shit. And then you get past Detroit and you win on the road, so for some reason, ’91 felt a little empty like I didn’t know what to do. But ’92 at home was such a celebration.
I’ve got one other for you: ’91 they win in L.A., they land in Chicago, and three of us drove to Jordan’s house in Highland Park. He used to live on Windy Hill, which was my intramural team name at Iowa. So we’re waiting for him — like 40 people are outside his house waiting for him to come back from the airport. And he pulls in in his white Porsche, license plate “MJJJ.” “Michael Jordan - Juanita Jordan.”
Juanita gets out and goes in the house. Jordan gets out and looks at the crowd of 40-odd people who don’t know what to do, and he extends his hand and everybody goes up and shakes his hand. And he just keeps saying, “Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate it.” I was the only one who didn’t go up to shake his hand because I didn’t want to bother him. (Laughs.) Which I regret.
Did you ever see Jordan years later and say, “I met you at Picture Day” or “I met you at the crib but didn’t shake your hand?” anything like that?
I never talked to him about Picture Day, but the first time I ever had a press pass, he had just been on Oprah. The Bulls were I think 3-0. (There was) a class at Columbia College on how to do play-by-play. I’m graduated from Iowa at this time. You got to go to a Bulls game, do the play-by-play up top and then afterwardb go in the locker room.
I think they beat Vancouver that night (Jack note: that’s right!), so relative for the time it was a light media crowd. He went through the first wave (of reporters), second wave and then the third wave and there are maybe 15 people there. Jordan’s in this great mood. He’s hanging around talking to everybody and I’m in there, this 24-year-old kid with Jordan. Heart pounding. It’s the greatest thing ever.
In the Oprah interview, Oprah had played a video of him dancing in a tank top to “How Ya Like Me Now?” He was laughing about it with Oprah so I thought it was fair game. We’re having this relaxing conversation and I open my mouth and say, “Hey Michael, how about this ‘How Ya Like Me Now?’ dance a la Oprah?’ And he shoots a look at me like Who the fuck is this guy? and he looks at me disapprovingly and says “Don’t jump in.” As in “Don’t jump in the conversation.”
Everyone laughs and he leaves. I’m like, Oh my god. We probably would have talked to him another two minutes, which would have been two more of the greatest minutes of my life, and now he hates me. The media thinks I’m an idiot. This is a horrible start to a career. My friends could not get enough of that one. “Don’t jump in” was a thing forever. (Laughs.)
JACK: I could go on and on but I’ll wrap it with this. I kind of make these jokes in my head: “Grandpa, what were you doing during the climate apocalypse and the end of democracy?” “I was tweeting about the 90s Bulls.”
Why does the dynasty matter to you personally? You’re not alone in this but you hold it dear and dig in to defend it from all comers. What does it mean to you and why does it mean what it means to you?
Now we’re going into the deep end of the pool. I’ll say it like this: my mom got sick with cancer in ’85. She passed away March 27, 1987. Bulls lost to the Celtics 111-106. That was part of the “Sweet 16” so we had tickets that night. She passed away on a Friday morning.
I wanted to go to the game that night because I did not want to deal with the enormous pain of losing my mom. Of course we didn’t go, but we wouldn’t have had tickets if — my dad was kind of a curmudgeon, and we wouldn’t have had tickets if she had not gotten sick because my dad wanted to give me something.
Rather than dealing with the pain of losing my mom and trying to go forward with life, my energy went into Jordan. That was the outlet. That was where I was able to feel good. There was life there, versus — you know, at home for me, there was not life. My brothers were out of the house, my mom was gone, my dad was working. It was not a fun place to be. Michael was this huge outlet.
When he retired the first time, I was at Iowa, and I didn’t go to school for three days. I thought life was over. All I did was watch SportsCenter all day long and try to buy every newspaper I possibly could because nobody knew that this thing called YouTube would be created and you could watch every game whenever the hell you wanted. So I have clippings and all sorts of stuff.
But that’s the reason. He was the outlet. And then also, people didn’t think he was going to do it. There was an underdogness to Jordan. Nobody remembers it, but at the time, Street & Smith magazine, Jordan’s bending and holding his shorts, and Bird and Magic are above him. There was some level of giant-slaying that played into it. You had to lean into the possibility that they were actually going do it. And the big bad evil Pistons. It was good vs. evil on some level in a young kid’s, or high school kid’s, mind.
The way Jordan was advertised, if you go back to the first 60 Minutes thing, they made him like the perfect person. So wholesome. He vacuums. He folds his laundry. He’s great with kids. He’s humble. There was a wholesomeness to him back then that felt good-vs.-evil-y, as crazy as that sounds now.
I did not know that about your mother. Obviously a much belated condolences.
(Laughs.) Thanks brother. It only took me 38 years to get over it, but now I can speak about it. But yeah, there was a lot wrapped up in it for me. And that’s why I hate Jerry Krause, because he almost ruined it for me. (Laughs.) No I’m kidding. (Pause.) Kind of.
When he was a Wizard, there was a bar at Damen and Roscoe that had all the Wizards games on. I drove to Cleveland with a press pass and saw him hit the game-winner with Collins. Got to be in the locker room for that. I went to his first game in Detroit with the Wizards, a preseason game. He played like 12 minutes. I was nuts. Still am.
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Carm and I have been talking about doing this interview since 2020. It was worth the wait. Thanks buddy.
To explain: The Bulls issued playoff tickets to season-ticket holders with letters. “Game A” was their first home playoff game, “Game B” was their second, and on and on. If you have home court advantage in all four rounds and every series goes the distance, that’s 15 home games, which ends at Game P. As Carm notes, when the Bulls swept a team, the series would not get back to Chicago for a third home game. That happened in the first two rounds of 1993, when we swept Atlanta and Cleveland: games A, B, C and D on the tickets. We did not have home court in either the ECF or the Finals. In the ECF, Games 3 and 4 at home were Games E and F on the season tickets, with the clinching Game 6 as Game G. Game 3 of the Finals back in Chicago was Game H, while Game I — the game Carm is talking about — was Game 4. The Finals were in the 2-3-2 format, meaning Game 5 was Game J, the final home game. As season ticket holders, the Carmen family then had unused tickets for six more possible home games, and Carm tried to fake his way into Game 4 — Game I — using a “Game P” ticket.
I’m trying to keep this story moving so here is more context from Carm: “A lot of those scalpers back in the day would have ticket-taker friends where you would pay them and you would walk up to the ticket-taker and they would let you in. It would cost 50 bucks to get in or 20 bucks or whatever. Those two would split the money.”
As I told Carm: “I was at the Bears-Eagles playoff game in January of ’02, and before kick they played “Gonna Fly Now” from Rocky and Bears fans were getting pumped up. I was like, “Why are we playing a Philly song for a playoff game against the Eagles?” No one reacted. So I’m glad to know that Bulls fans recognized the sonic jinx at hand.”
JACK: Was that season ticket holders or open to the public? CARM: “Good question. I think open to the public. You had to get there super early. It was way before the game. I’m pretty sure it was for everybody — 99% certain.” Did you have to have tickets to the game? “I think you had to have tickets. That’s what it was. Tickets for Picture Day. But you had an hour after Picture Day before game time, so it was a commitment.”